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Turtle Position Top | BJJ Position Guide | BJJ Graph

Oct 25, 202527 min read

Turtle Position Top

bjjstatecontrolturtletransitional

State Properties

  • State ID: S246
  • Point Value: 0 (Transitional position, 2 points if maintained 3+ seconds in IBJJF)
  • Position Type: Offensive/Controlling
  • Risk Level: Medium
  • Energy Cost: Medium
  • Time Sustainability: Short to Medium

State Description

Turtle Position Top is an attacking position where you control an opponent who has assumed the turtle position (on their hands and knees) for defensive purposes. This is a highly transitional position that offers numerous attacking opportunities including back takes, submissions, and breakdowns to more dominant pins. The position requires active engagement and strategic decision-making, as the bottom person can explode to standing or re-guard if control is insufficient. Mastery of this position is crucial for maintaining offensive momentum after guard passes or scrambles.

Visual Description

You are positioned behind or to the side of your opponent who is on their hands and knees in defensive turtle posture. Your chest makes contact with their upper back or shoulder, with your arms actively working to establish control mechanisms. Your hands seek various control configurations: harness grip (one arm over shoulder, one under armpit, hands clasped on far side), seatbelt control (similar to harness but often with different hand grips), or individual grips on their belt, gi, or body. Your hips are positioned close to theirs, often with one or both knees on the mat beside their body, ready to insert hooks for back control. Your weight distribution is forward, pressuring down on their shoulders and preventing them from exploding upward or forward. Your head position is typically alongside their ribs or back, staying safe from potential headlock attempts while maintaining visual awareness of their movements. The opponent’s head is tucked protectively, their elbows are tight to their body, and their knees and hands support their weight in a compact defensive ball. This creates a dynamic engagement where you must constantly adjust your controls to counter their defensive adjustments, position improvements, or escape attempts. The position feels unstable and temporary, requiring quick recognition of opportunities and decisive action to capitalize on openings as they appear.

Key Principles

  • Active Control Seeking: Constantly work to improve control - turtle is a transitional position, not a resting position
  • Hip Proximity: Keep your hips close to opponent’s hips to prevent them creating distance or standing
  • Harness/Seatbelt Priority: Establishing upper body control (harness or seatbelt) is the highest priority for back exposure
  • Base Disruption: Attack opponent’s base points (hands and knees) to collapse their defensive structure
  • Angle Creation: Move around opponent’s body to create angles that expose their back or neck
  • Hook Insertion Timing: Recognize optimal moments to insert hooks for back control transition
  • Submission Awareness: Maintain constant threat of chokes (guillotine, darce, anaconda) to create defensive dilemmas
  • Prevent Escape to Guard: Block opponent’s attempts to turn back into you and re-establish guard

Prerequisites

  • Guard pass completion or scramble resolution
  • Understanding of back take mechanics
  • Knowledge of turtle breakdown techniques
  • Familiarity with front headlock attacks
  • Ability to chain multiple attack attempts

State Invariants

  • Opponent is on their hands and knees (turtle position)
  • You have some form of top control (grips, pressure, or positioning)
  • Opponent’s back is partially or fully exposed
  • You are not underneath opponent (that would be bottom turtle)
  • At least one control point established (grip, hook, or pressure)

Defensive Responses (When Opponent Has This State)

Offensive Transitions (Available From This State)

Back Takes

Breakdowns to Pins

Submissions

Alternative Controls

Counter Transitions

Expert Insights

John Danaher: “The turtle position represents a critical moment in BJJ where the bottom person is neither in guard nor fully pinned. From top turtle, your primary strategic goal should be back exposure and back control - this is the single highest-percentage path to victory from this position. Many practitioners make the error of immediately hunting for submissions, specifically guillotines and other front chokes, without first establishing proper control. The systematic approach is: first, establish harness or seatbelt control; second, work for hook insertion; third, transition to back control; fourth, attack with submissions from a position of dominance. The turtle position is inherently unstable for both parties, so whoever makes fewer mistakes and acts more decisively typically prevails. Focus on breaking their defensive structure - attack their posting arms, disrupt their base, create angles that expose their back. The front headlock position is acceptable as an intermediary control, but always with the goal of progressing to back control or forcing them flat for a pin.”

Gordon Ryan: “From top turtle, I’m immediately thinking about the back take because that’s where my submission rate is highest. The key is recognizing when they’re turtled tight versus when they’re starting to move - movement is your opportunity to insert hooks and secure back control. I use a lot of harness control and focus on getting one hook in first, even if it’s not perfect back control yet. Once I have one hook, I can work for the second while maintaining pressure. What separates high-level back takes from turtle versus beginner attempts is hip control - your hips need to be glued to theirs throughout the transition. If they stand up, I’m controlling their hips and either taking them back down or taking their back while standing. The guillotine is tempting from here, but I only commit to it if their head is way out and exposed. Otherwise, failed guillotine attempts let them escape back to guard, which is the opposite of progress. Stay patient, get the back, finish from the best position in jiu-jitsu.”

Eddie Bravo: “Turtle position is where some of my favorite techniques live - truck position, twister, and all kinds of creative back attacks. When someone turtles against me, I’m looking at their far leg and far arm for truck position entry. If I can isolate that far leg and get my lockdown or leg control, I’m setting up the twister or other spine attacks that people don’t expect. But you can’t tunnel vision on one technique - you have to flow. If the truck isn’t there, I’ll switch to darce or anaconda setups, especially if they’re trying to swim their arms defensively. The clock choke from turtle is super high percentage if you know how to walk around their body while maintaining pressure. What I like about attacking the turtle is that people think they’re safe when they’re really not - it’s a false sense of security. Keep your weight heavy on their shoulders, don’t let them breathe or rest, and when they move to escape, that’s when you capitalize. The turtle is a position where innovation and creativity can really shine, so don’t just follow the standard back take script every time.”

Common Errors

Error: Excessive Weight on Opponent’s Back

  • Consequence: Overcommitting your weight onto opponent’s back actually helps them stay stable and defensive. It also gives them leverage to potentially roll through or stand up, using your weight and momentum against you. Your mobility becomes restricted, preventing quick transitions to submissions or improved positions. Opponent can time your weight shifts to create escape opportunities.
  • Correction: Maintain pressure on their upper back and shoulders with your chest, but keep a significant portion of your weight on your own base (knees and feet). Think of “surfing” their movements rather than crushing them flat with static weight. Your pressure should be directional and strategic, not just heavy. Apply pressure in vectors that break their structure rather than simply pushing down.
  • Recognition: If opponent can easily hold their turtle position without deteriorating, or if you feel stuck and unable to move fluidly, you’re likely too heavy on them. You should be able to quickly change levels, insert hooks, or switch to different attacks without having to “unweight” yourself first.

Error: Ignoring Near-Side Arm

  • Consequence: Failing to control or monitor opponent’s near-side arm allows them to post, frame against your body, or create barriers preventing hook insertion. This arm can also be used to attack your legs in scrambles or to facilitate their escape to guard. Many back take defenses rely on the near-side arm creating obstacles, and ignoring it means facing these defenses unprepared.
  • Correction: Your near-side hand (the one closest to opponent’s head) should constantly work to control, clear, or pin their near arm. Options include: pinning it to the mat, controlling their wrist, using an overhook, or clearing it away from their body. As you attempt back takes, this arm control is crucial for smooth hook insertion. Even if not actively gripping, maintain awareness of where this arm is and what it’s doing.
  • Recognition: If your hook insertion attempts are consistently blocked, or if opponent successfully frames against your chest, their near arm is operating freely. You should always know exactly where opponent’s near arm is positioned and have a plan for dealing with it.

Error: Staying Static in One Position

  • Consequence: Remaining stationary while on top of turtle gives opponent time to improve their defensive posture, set their grips, and plan their escape or counter. Static positions allow them to rest and gather energy while you waste yours trying to break down a prepared defense. Dynamic opponents can explode from turtle when they feel you’re not actively controlling.
  • Correction: Constantly move around turtle position, changing angles and attack points. Walk your feet to change position from behind them to their side, then to the opposite side. This movement creates angles for back exposure and prevents opponent from settling into a strong defensive structure. Movement also baits reactions - when they react to your positioning changes, openings appear. Think “orbit” their body while maintaining control.
  • Recognition: If opponent’s turtle position feels rock-solid and unbreakable, you’re likely too static. You should feel like you’re hunting, probing, and creating reactions, not sitting in stalemate. Opponent should feel constantly pressured to adjust their defense.

Error: Premature Guillotine Attempts

  • Consequence: Jumping on guillotines before securing proper control is one of the most common ways to lose the turtle position. Failed guillotine attempts often result in opponent passing your legs, standing up, or recovering guard. Committing to a guillotine sacrifices your positional advantage for a low-percentage submission attempt. Even if you have the neck, without proper setup and control, athletic opponents can escape.
  • Correction: Only attempt guillotines from turtle when: (1) opponent’s head is significantly forward and exposed, (2) you have already secured some form of control (seatbelt, front headlock, or base disruption), (3) you’re confident in your guillotine finish rate, or (4) you’re using the guillotine threat to set up back takes or other attacks. If you do commit to guillotine, ensure your legs are in position to prevent guard recovery - closed guard around their waist at minimum.
  • Recognition: If you frequently end up in bottom guard or standing after guillotine attempts from turtle, you’re attacking too early or with insufficient setup. Track your guillotine success rate from turtle - if it’s below 40%, you need to be more selective about when you attempt them.

Error: Neglecting Hip Connection

  • Consequence: Allowing space between your hips and opponent’s hips gives them the critical distance needed to stand up, sit back to guard, or create other escapes. Hip distance also makes hook insertion for back takes nearly impossible, as you can’t reach their hips to control them. Many back take entries fail specifically because hip connection was lost during the transition.
  • Correction: Keep your hips as close to opponent’s hips as possible throughout the engagement. When they move, your hips should immediately follow. During back take attempts, your hips should be “chasing” theirs - if their hips go up, yours go up; if they shift laterally, you shift with them. Think of being connected by an elastic band that never exceeds 6 inches in length.
  • Recognition: If opponent successfully stands up or sits through to guard, you likely lost hip connection during their escape. You should feel opponent’s hip movements through your connection before you see them visually. If you’re reaching or stretching to maintain control, the connection has already been lost.

Error: Weak Harness/Seatbelt Control

  • Consequence: Loose or improperly configured harness control allows opponent to strip your grips, turn into you, or create escape space. Without solid harness control, back takes become low percentage and opponent maintains the ability to defend effectively. Weak control also telegraphs your intentions, allowing opponent to preemptively defend.
  • Correction: When establishing harness/seatbelt control, ensure: (1) your over-shoulder arm is deep, with your bicep tight against their neck/shoulder, (2) your under-armpit arm is threaded completely through, not just surface-level, (3) your hands are connected with a strong grip (gable grip, seat belt grip, or gi grips as appropriate), (4) your chest is tight against their back with no space. Pull them slightly backward into your chest to break their forward base. Constantly adjust and tighten this control as they move.
  • Recognition: If opponent can easily turn their shoulders to face you, or if your grips frequently get stripped, your harness control is insufficient. You should feel like you’re wearing a backpack that can’t be removed, not just loosely holding their upper body.

Error: Ignoring Lower Body Position

  • Consequence: Failing to control or monitor your leg positioning leaves you vulnerable to opponent’s explosive escapes, leg attacks, or reversals. Poor lower body position makes it difficult to sprawl when they try to stand, or to follow them as they move. Your base becomes compromised, and dynamic opponents can exploit this to reverse position or escape entirely.
  • Correction: Maintain strategic leg position based on your current attack: (1) When attacking the back, keep one or both knees ready to insert hooks, (2) When breaking them down, have one leg posted as a base while the other attacks their structure, (3) When they try to stand, have your legs positioned to sprawl or maintain hip connection, (4) Keep your feet active and ready to adjust, not flat or passive. Your lower body should be as engaged as your upper body.
  • Recognition: If opponent stands up and you can’t control their hips, or if you’re frequently off-balance during their movements, your lower body positioning is inadequate. You should feel stable and ready to move in any direction at any moment.

Training Drills

Drill 1: Back Take Repetition from Static Turtle

Partner maintains static turtle position while you practice the fundamental back take sequence. Start by establishing harness control with proper depth and connection. Work through the steps: (1) establish harness grip, (2) bring your chest to their back, (3) position your hips close to theirs, (4) insert first hook (near-side hook) by opening their leg line, (5) secure first hook by connecting your instep to their opposite inner thigh, (6) insert second hook while maintaining all previous controls, (7) finalize back control with proper positioning. Perform 10 repetitions on each side (approaching from their left side, then their right side) at 0% resistance. Progress to 25% resistance where partner provides minor defensive movements. Focus points: smooth, technical movement without rushing; maintaining harness control throughout every step; proper hip connection before hook insertion; keeping opponent’s weight forward so they can’t sit back into guard. Goal is to complete the entire sequence in under 5 seconds at each resistance level. Between rounds, partner provides feedback on which moment they felt most vulnerable and which step felt least controlled.

Drill 2: Dynamic Turtle Attack Response

Partner actively defends turtle position using various defensive movements and escapes: sitting back to guard, posting hand to create frames, turning in toward you, attempting to stand, granby rolling. You must recognize each defensive action in real-time and respond with the appropriate attack or transition. Resistance progresses from 40% (choreographed defenses) to 60% (random defenses) to 80% (full defensive effort). Perform 3-minute rounds with 1-minute rest, complete 5 rounds. Coach or training partner calls out defensive actions in first round: “sit through,” “stand,” “turn in,” “roll.” Your goal is to not just react but to anticipate based on weight shifts and postural changes. Success metrics: maintain some form of control (don’t lose position entirely) on 90%+ of defensive attempts; achieve position improvement (back control, breakdown, submission control) on 50%+ of attempts. This drill develops the critical skill of reading opponent’s defensive intentions before they fully commit to an escape.

Drill 3: Submission Entry Flow from Turtle

With partner in defensive turtle, practice flowing between different submission setups without actually finishing. Sequence: (1) Front headlock control → (2) Guillotine setup (grip only, don’t fall back) → (3) Darce setup (arm threaded, don’t squeeze) → (4) Anaconda setup (alternate arm configuration) → (5) Clock choke setup (walk around, don’t finish) → (6) Return to front headlock and repeat. Partner provides 30% resistance, focusing on realistic defensive movements without explosive escape attempts. Complete 5 cycles of the entire sequence, then switch. Focus on: maintaining control throughout transitions, never losing contact with opponent’s upper body, keeping hips close to theirs, recognizing which setups flow naturally based on their defensive adjustments. This develops your ability to chain attacks and adapt based on opponent’s reactions. Time goal: complete full sequence in 60 seconds or less while maintaining control quality. Partner rates your pressure maintenance on 1-10 scale after each cycle.

Drill 4: Turtle Breakdown Techniques

Partner maintains strong turtle position (full effort to stay up) while you practice various breakdown techniques systematically. Techniques to drill: (1) Near-side arm strip and pull, (2) Far-side arm collapse, (3) Hip pressure breakdown, (4) Shoulder roll breakdown, (5) Base removal (pulling hands off mat), (6) Sprawl and pressure breakdown. Practice each technique 5 times at 50% resistance, then 5 times at 75% resistance, then 3 times at 100% resistance. After breakdown is successful, immediately transition to a pin position (side control, north-south, or mount). Focus on: using leverage and technique rather than pure strength, timing breakdowns with opponent’s weight shifts, maintaining pressure throughout the breakdown so they can’t rebuild turtle. Success metric: achieve breakdown and pin position within 10 seconds of initial attempt. Track which breakdown techniques work best against different partner body types and defensive styles. This data informs your strategic selection of breakdown methods against specific opponents.

Drill 5: Scramble Initiation and Resolution

Partner starts in strong defensive turtle with the instruction to attempt one explosive escape attempt of their choice at a random moment within a 30-second window. Your job is to: (1) recognize the escape attempt as it initiates, (2) respond appropriately to maintain control or improve position, (3) either secure back control or finish with a submission. Partner can choose from: standing up, rolling through, sitting to guard, explosive turn-in, or granby roll. They commit fully to their chosen escape (90-100% effort). Reset and repeat 10 times per training session. This simulates the most challenging aspect of turtle control - handling explosive, committed escape attempts. Score the outcomes: 3 points for securing back control, 2 points for maintaining any control position (front headlock, side control), 1 point for scramble that remains neutral, 0 points if they escape fully. Track your average points per attempt across training sessions to measure improvement. Video review (if available) is particularly valuable here to analyze: (1) what telegraphed the escape attempt before it happened, (2) whether your response was optimal for that specific escape type, (3) technical errors that allowed escape success or caused you to lose control. This drill develops the explosive reaction capability and decision-making necessary for competition-level turtle control.

Drill 6: Position-Specific Sparring with Restrictions

Standard positional sparring from turtle position but with specific restrictions to develop particular skills. Variations include: (1) No guillotines allowed - must achieve back control or breakdown to pin before attempting submissions, (2) Must change side every 15 seconds - develops mobility and angle creation, (3) Can only secure one grip at a time - develops grip efficiency and prioritization, (4) Bottom person can only use passive defense (no explosive escapes) - develops technical control mastery, (5) Reset if position is lost - develops caution and risk management. Each variation runs for 3-minute rounds, cycle through all variations. Bottom person should vary their defensive approach: sometimes super defensive, sometimes explosive, sometimes strategic and patient. Track success metrics appropriate to each restriction. This drill isolates specific skills that often get overlooked in open sparring while maintaining realistic resistance levels.

Decision Tree

If opponent is stationary and defensive (tight turtle):

Else if opponent’s head is forward and exposed:

Else if opponent attempts to sit through to guard:

Else if opponent tries to stand up:

Else if opponent turns in toward you:

Else if opponent’s far arm is isolated:

Else (dynamic scramble situation):

Position Metrics

  • Success Rate: 75% back take or position improvement (against skilled opponents)
  • Average Time in Position: 20-60 seconds (highly transitional)
  • Submission Probability: 50% (primarily from chokes)
  • Back Control Achievement Probability: 75% (primary success metric)
  • Position Loss Probability: 25% (opponent escapes to guard or standing)

Optimal Submission Paths

Highest percentage path (positional dominance): Turtle Position Top → Back Take from Turtle → Back Control → Rear Naked Choke → Won by Submission Reasoning: Taking the back from turtle provides the highest-percentage submission position in BJJ. While this path involves more steps, the dramatically increased submission success rate from back control (70%+ vs 40% from turtle) makes it superior overall. This is the systematic, patient approach that yields highest success against skilled opponents.

Fastest path to submission (opportunistic): Turtle Position Top → Guillotine from Turtle → Front Headlock → Won by Submission Reasoning: When opponent’s head is exposed and forward, guillotine offers quickest route to finish. Success requires immediate recognition of opportunity and strong guillotine technique. Risk is moderate - failed attempt may result in guard recovery. Best used against less experienced opponents or when head is significantly exposed.

Technical submission path (choke specialization): Turtle Position Top → Anaconda Setup → Darce Control or Anaconda Control → Won by Submission Reasoning: Arm-in chokes from turtle offer high-percentage submissions without requiring full back control. Particularly effective in no-gi where guillotine defense is more common. Requires proper setup and technical execution but allows submission finish from transitional position. Good option when back takes are being well-defended but opponent is giving up arm positioning.

Breakdown path (pin then submit): Turtle Position Top → Turtle Breakdown → Side Control or North-South → Submission from Pin → Won by Submission Reasoning: Breaking opponent flat removes their defensive structure and forces them to defend pins, creating submission opportunities from more stable positions. This patient approach is excellent when opponent has strong turtle defense and explosive escape attempts. Sacrifice immediate back attack for more controlled, secure path to finish.

Advanced path (crucifix specialization): Turtle Position Top → Crucifix Entry → Crucifix Position → Arm or Choke Attacks → Won by Submission Reasoning: Crucifix from turtle offers unique submission opportunities with both arms trapped. Particularly effective against opponents who defend with arms wide or when far arm becomes isolated. Requires specific technical knowledge and timing but provides dominant control with submission options. Best used by practitioners who have specialized crucifix skills.

Competition Considerations

Point Scoring: Under IBJJF rules, top turtle position does not score points initially, but maintaining control for 3+ seconds scores 2 points as a “stabilization” before back takes or guard passes. Taking the back from turtle scores 4 additional points once criteria are met (both hooks in with some form of control). In ADCC, turtle control doesn’t score independently but back takes and pins from turtle do score. The key strategic insight is that turtle position is primarily valuable as a transitional position toward scoring positions (back control, pins) rather than a scoring position itself.

Time Management: Turtle position should not be held for extended periods - it’s a transitional moment requiring quick decision-making and execution. In competition, spending more than 30-45 seconds in turtle without progress indicates either technical limitations or strategic errors. When ahead on points, efficiently breaking down turtle or securing back control prevents opponent from stalling in defensive position. When behind, turtle situations must be resolved quickly to generate scoring opportunities - don’t get bogged down in technical battles that consume match time without generating points.

Rule Set Adaptations:

  • IBJJF Gi: Utilize gi grips (collar, belt, pants) for enhanced control. Collar drags and lapel controls provide additional back exposure opportunities. Clock choke becomes extremely high percentage with gi grips.
  • IBJJF No-Gi: Focus more on harness/seatbelt control and front headlock as gi grips are unavailable. Guillotine and arm-in chokes (darce, anaconda) become primary submission threats. Body locks and over-under controls replace gi grip strategies.
  • ADCC: More aggressive approach is warranted since points start later in match. Early in match, take risks on submission attempts from turtle. Later in match, secure back control for points. Negative points for stalling mean you must actively attack - can’t hold turtle position without progress.
  • Submission Only: Most aggressive approach - take calculated risks on submission attempts directly from turtle without necessarily establishing full back control first. The lack of points removes the “points then submissions” hierarchy, making immediate submission attempts more strategically sound.

Competition Strategy: When encountering turtle in competition, your response should be guided by several factors:

  • Match Time: Early in match, take time to establish proper controls and execute technical back takes. Late in match, be more aggressive with breakdowns and direct submissions.
  • Score Differential: When ahead, secure back control methodically for points and control time. When behind, take calculated risks on direct submissions or quick breakdowns that generate immediate scoring opportunities.
  • Opponent Assessment: Against explosive athletes, prioritize harness control and heavy pressure to slow their movement. Against technical defenders, use movement and angle changes to create reactions and openings. Against inflexible opponents, breakdowns may be higher percentage than back takes.
  • Energy Levels: If you’re fatigued, breakdowns to pins may be more sustainable than dynamic back takes. If opponent is fatigued, their turtle defense deteriorates - capitalize with aggressive attacking.

The turtle position in competition represents a critical decision point - the practitioner who makes quicker, more accurate tactical decisions and executes with better technique almost always prevails. Pre-match preparation should include specific turtle attack drilling and clear decision trees for common defensive scenarios.

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